Discussion on Narcissism in Ashram House


I knew Jeeya since 2015, we met at one of the Facilitators in Training workshop and since then we also worked together for following couple of years. During late 2015, Jeeya and I came up with an idea of Ashram (a communal space), where we would invite our mentor and spent time learning about spirituality and shades of our personalities.


The idea was brilliant as we had opportunity to learn boundlessly however we never thought that it'd be breaching into our mentors personal space. Looking at our excitement, our mentors politely accepted the proposal.


In this transcript, Jeeya and I speak about Narcissism and how we related to it at the Ashram House, where number of self invited "seekers" joined in to spoil our growth.



Jeeya: For me I highlighted that the label actually, narcissist is being misused coz mm I personally think narcissist is very negative and bad thing. But apparently from this article, he says that a little bit of narcissist is good for us. Not as literally for me but for some people coz mm because it can be actually a tool for some people who are generally more on inferior side. Like even the normal people they actually take this a little bit of narcissism of that trait of spinning, of feeling a little special that actually may help them. Coz apparently lot of mm general narcissism like more of a normal one the more normal narcissist, has been the victim of being over use by the label coz they are not that are not the extreme narcissist like they are just normal but they just been label as or put together or categorise with all the extreme cases of narcissist so that is mmm and then the real narcissist like the one covert or could be like myself that is hidden inside that we go undetected not much people may know what I truly feel inside. Coz I have been hiding that part of myself so deep inside that I think people will not be able to detect that part of me. If its not properly address all this will be hidden and will go undetected. Thats my understanding of that paragraph.


Nandini: for me what I have written is narcissism is developing at a very fast rate in this current world where Facebook and Instagram have become medium to get the attention instantly. They have become the machines which are creating the narcissism traits in the people. They are generating the seed which been installed in people. I mean if a person is not a narcissist but being on social media for long, he will definitely develop the envious, jealousy, competition and will become sad and depress and start hooking people to get the attention as slowly theses media are brainwashing people mind. And the people think what they are doing there is no harm in it. That will this type of narcissist is still in healthy stage. The real narcissist is hard to find. These are the people whom you can never think of and have utmost trust. Normally are the wolf wearing the sheep clothes.


Jeeya: I think generally that I found out recently that narcissism is in everyone is like a I am not to sure is it born but everyone does show a little bit of narcissist trait in us. Its a matter of intensity of it like how much we are showing a little bit or a lot. So thats is what I found out like Nandini do you think that is being created by social media this narcissist trait and they been putting it into the people


Jeeya: so that is I think for that we can talk about it at the later part coz that will be something touch as well. So basically that is my understanding yah I thought that narcissist is in everybody. So of course what you say the environment, the people or the upbringing can play a part in developing a narcissism in us, like in myself, for my case, of course where my childhood thing happened I become inferior and I become the extreme of narcissist. So yes so the more vulnerable side, so rather than the other side of u know the coin, I am one extreme end as well. So yeah. Then the next one we can talk about what narcissism is and what it isnt. so mm in this article it say that actually having a little bit of narcissism is good because it actually helps to build a little bit of confidence so that we will go and take some risk or at least with this little bit of special feeling about yourself we can try to, I dont fight something for yourself, but at least for me if I am a person who is not good enough. A little bit of that special feeling, I would at least try to find something for myself or ok actually I deserve something. Coz if I am always in that vulnerable state thinking I am not good enough fight for myself for anything. So that little bit of narcissism, that positive side of it, if it really put into the proper use, it can actually help me.


Nandini: I dont see that narcissist of that much can of good side I mean thats my view point if a person is a vulnerable and if you think that keeping the vulnerable part hidden and using narcissist and the fake feeling to feel better and even if the person gets the attention so every time goanna get addicted so if there is healthy narcissism that will eventually build up and become a lot more stronger and become an extreme narcissism so the narcissist obviously when you start or born you are not the extreme narcissist , you are a narcissist where the vulnerable feeling is still there. somehow a little bit feeling is there and due to the certain circumstance that happened , it will develop more and more so for me seeing narcissist, being in a positive side but aa getting that feeling of being vulnerable is more important than suppressing the feeling and putting narcissist trait on the top and taking that risk. Coz eventually it will become really bad and hooked up to people to get the attention every time.


Jeeya: of course what article says that having too much of narcissist that special feeling that will cause problem for whoever it. So I think a lot of discernment has to be in it and lot of discipline and awareness as well so that you can use it a little bit but like you said but not like to much like you said it will go into extreme cases. Coz if the awareness is not there u know and get too much indulged in that role playing that eventually you will lost yourself and will develop into another person.


Nandini: so if a person is vulnerable how can the person has that awareness and then to stop being vulnerable is that situation then that hits you , the inferiority complex hits you, you dont get away you just need to get the attention. So saying that when you get the taste of getting the attention its very hard even if you have awareness to be on the right path. Coz its the easy way to get the attention from the people and not to work on being vulnerable. So there is nothing called healthy. The min you know that you have got narcissism trait in you thats the point that you really need to start working on that part, vulnerable part so that it does not develop, rather than saying that I have got the narcissist coz if you have got the narcissist that means that chances that you wont be able to handle that narcissism, the strangeness of handling the narcissism, cannot be there. And it will be very easy to fall back. So thats my understanding


Jeeya: but I think the most cases people who are narcissist they do not realize that they are narcissist isnt it so myself I also dont really realise it


Nandini: but when you mention that being aware when they are being narcissist


Jeeya: so if they are being exposed through, as in before in, I am not too sure if its going to be in like early stages. Its like something like sex education coz if early exposure and explanation of possibility of becoming a narcissist then the awareness is there right so if you being make aware if we are make being aware then at the early stage so it will prevent the further damage to yourself.


Nandini: Actually thats a very good point Jeeya. I would like to add something over here. That my niece I would like to give example of my niece that she is narcissist and she is 7 year old and its really hard as my sister didnt really know about what narcissist is. My niece is very different to handle with and to deal with and the way she behaves so now my sister is using a very different approach because she is young and can be mould. So awareness around the narcissist people is very important which can help the narcissist to look at themselves coz having the narcissist trait must be hard on themselves to look on it. But if the awareness is around them then they can act differently and react differently and which can help a narcissist may be to overcome the issue.


Jeeya: so I think basically there is something called the a narcissist personality disorder inventory that is commonly used to measure the traits like the level of their modesty , their assertiveness, the inclination to lead and willingness to manipulate others , this was written in the article. So I think this is something that was used to measure the weather you are extreme or a healthy personality in that sense. So and then the article says that a diagnose for the pathological narcissism which is mental health disorder involve different criteria. so narcissist personality disorder is extreme manifestation of trait and then this disorder can be diagnosed by the mental health professional and suspected when a person narcissist trait impair, his or her daily functioning. So if of course if we can reflect on yourself and for me is my own case. I feel like one way or another I do few impair which I cant really function properly on daily basis. And cant really handle conflicts and as well as just add anything fiction, I do not want to handle all those things. Loss of identity, I dont know who am I, where I am going, those types of questions comes up for me. So this article actually says that dysfunctional might be related to the identity of self-direct or cause friction in relationship due to problem with empathy and intimacy. So even though pathological antagonism characterized by grandiosity and attention seeking. I think I do have little bit of those in me.


Nandini: for me daily functioning I mean I have lot of attention seeking and grandiosity I can say. That without the attention of the people its very hard for me to even survive for a day. If I dont get the attention its was extremely hard for me. I hate conflicts and try to avoid them. I dont like the conflicts around me but I enjoy . For me the attention seeking is very important and to show everyone how great I am and good .


Jeeya: do you have like any awkwardness in social interaction.


Nandini: I do show that I am very shy


Jeeya: but do you actually have a problem socializing with the other people


Nandini: no

Jeeya: but I do have a problem in connecting and socializing with the people coz I cant connect .i was not able to blend in. I mean with the friends I can talk for like 15-20 mins and after that I dont know what to say anymore. Because I had the problem of instead of, I would create something to talk. So eventually it will become gossiping about other people. coz I do no what to say anymore and I have to create something to say. So of course in my mind is ok that gossip is something good then . You know everyone enjoys talking. At least I can keep the conversation going on . Sometimes I really dont have. I am blank there. I dont know what to say.


Nandini: actually it happens to me. I only talk together the attention but cannot connect with the people and I normally do not have any topic. What I do normally is what I know. Change everyones topic so that the topic which I know, everyone can talk to. And if I am in certain group, certain people, I really feel very left out. I just want to go away from there. Gossiping, I really enjoy gossiping. Since a child coz thats the thing which made me feel really good and I can talk and yah but connecting with the people it never happens.


Jeeya: even in this article it says that personality disorder is pervasive disturbance in person ability to manage his /her emotions on a stable sense of self and identity and maintain the healthy relationship in work friendship and learn. Its a matter of rigidity that means we cant change. Like everything is so fixated. I mean for me definitely of course as long as I am in comfort zone thats the way I will operate and I will stick to it. Because to me thats so called its most efficient way to work. Of course thats only in my eyes and in others peoples eyes in might not. I am still the frog in that well. i thought I world is the well. So I definitely operate in a very rigid manner. Nandini : me too. You remember my driving. I always chose the one way of driving no matter what people say so, go from there. I just dont feel very comfortable. And I dont like people telling me coz I am very fixated with what I do, in that sort of way. Coz its lot easier. Jeeya I think there is one question I have is I still dont understand what is narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic personality inventory. Coz I think NPI is like a score system to tell if you are narcissistic or not. So whats your understanding?


Nandini: what the two words disorder and traits


Jeeya: narcissistic personality traits and narcissistic personality disorder


Nandini: I think the traits are just the starting. Like . Jeeya lets do the next one many faces of narcissism. So actually before that I didnt discover myself as a narcissist. I thought narcissist is only one face like you know like the extreme one. Only the one who manipulate the people. But eventually vulnerability from myside as operating from the inferior point view is also the narcissist coz there is many similarities in there. So like in this article they also say that. there are narcissists may indeed perceive themselves as being in the top 1 percent in terms of talent, appearance, success, or all of the above. And its really a mistake to think that all narcissists will be very obvious. So not all narcissist look for fame, looks and money and then if we focus on too much on stereotype, you will miss red flag that have nothing to do with vanity or greed which is people like me. So because we are well hidden and no body actually notice us.


Nandini: you know Jeeya. I think all the narcissist have all these quality in them. They all are vulnerable. I mean thats the point which give rise to become and feel superior and to manipulate the people. Vulnerability is the part is the narcissism, inferiority complex is the narcissism and eventually in life as you grow and get the taste of power and money and thats where narcissism become more. That you grow more into the narcissism. You have got the power and feel the power that you try to manipulate and get more attention by doing lot of things. what I can say from journey that I am very vulnerable and have lot of inferiority complex and then when I got the taste of doing the business and the power came in. it became that I want to show to everyone that how good I am and to use the power to trap the people in. then why I came into the spirituality that was my different phase again to slowing trying to get rid of the show path that eventually would let go of everything. But again the agenda was to get the attention. So narcissist have everything but it depends what they are getting in their power to develop I mean not sure I make my line very clear or not but itsdepends upon what narcissist people have in them. Like Donald trump he has got the power, he has got the money and thats how he can come into that category. But deep down he is vulnerable and have inferiority complex. I mean laughs


Jeeya: I know that I could under the highly introvert or vulnerable narcissist. I defiantly react to criticism and will go all the way down. I dont need constant assurance that I am good. I always feel very low about myself. I will be very critical about myself and will go into this negativity.


Nandini: I was like that too. When I was in India but when I came to Australia, I changed myself completely. coz I wanted to change , wanted to dominate people coz I been living that personality for very long time. So then I was given the freedom, coz rite now you were that coz you were with your family. And when I was with my family, one criticism would blew me out but I was not asking. Yeah I would talk to my sister. So when I was in India I was in very different stage, vulnerable stage of narcissist. When I went to Australia I was on different stage of narcissist. After leaving Udbhav I was on different level of narcissist. Different personality, different vulnerable. Everything was there so maybe. because you have not tasted what power and money can give that feeling. Coz the min it comes in, it will take you to the different level of narcissism.


Jeeya: can you please explain it to me what do you mean by different level of narcissism .coz it feels like u know if I am not able too if I am not into the narcissism or I myself is not narcissist or I would not have understood what you have just explain.


Nandini: what I am saying is the vulnerability is the starting stage of narcissism. When a narcissist person, he is vulnerable in the start. Thats the initial stage coz you and then .just to make them self-good, like I want to make myself feel good. I am so inferior and the min power of money comes, I am feeling very good. I am relaying on that to get the attention of the people to show the world so that they can see how strong I am. So that I can cover up the vulnerable feeling inside me.


Jeeya: I think we are both operating from the same level. For me its not the money. But if you read my write up. I actually said that I wanted to show that I have strong front in front of everyone. Coz I felt humiliated and week when people know or when my parents back then, show me how not good I am. I did cover up with that sense and want to show to the world that I am strong. I mean under that kind of sentence we are more sort of operating at the same level in that sense. Of course for me is not the money. I control my emotions u know when I was kid I would tell myself that I cannot cry coz if I cry I will be showing that I am week. So I have to put up the very strong front. Even if they really cane me, I just stand there and just let them hit me. I just dont care. I just tell myself I cannot back down. The pride is the only thing that put me together, that glues me together in that sense because I am so broken.


Nandini: I would really like to add one thing that when you said about the hitting part, I remember that when my mom was , I was 16 slapped , I didnt reacted anything because I wanted to maintain my I want to give that impression . see nothing can be..i cannot be broken. But deep down I am broken but in a way to put my sister down and to get into my mums soft corner .that I was not ready to show the emotion. I understand what you are saying. As I child I went through something similar humiliated by my parents, being called ..when..Like you know. When family members comes around and was told to come outside and told that how week I am in studies and not good I am. I used to hate it in front of teachers and everyone but then I have that I have to show and prove it to everyone that I am I have to leave India and have to go to Australia.


Jeeya: is there any trigger point to make you behave in certain way and forgotten about something.


Nandini: I mean there was lot of incidents that happen, I clearly remember how I was humiliated in front of guests , humiliation in front of teachers .i could not understand what normal people , children understanding . I was not really good in studies. My mind could not grasp it. I was creative, I was good in drawing. I was not able to study properly. It takes a lot so I didnt know who I am. If anyone would ask what sort of person I am or what I like I could not able to express myself or even make a coherent sentence. There was whole lot of things missing inside.


Jeeya: what are the missing things?


Nandini: missing that. The connection, the feeling empty inside .the feeling there was lot of emptiness , there was lot of confusion inside.. Just didnt know what is write and what is wrong.


Jeeya: is there anything that happened in your childhood that causes you to be like that Nandini I think I am born like that. I am not going to say that it was in me, all this circumstance made it worse. I think it could have been controlled to what level I am today but if my family would have been more understanding towards my situation. I think there could be some changes in me but again its not there mistake as level as I was never honest to them of how I feel and have really express my emotions so that they could have helped me. I feel growing a narcissist child, a parent have to be very careful how they are dealing with. Coz they cannot deal with them like a normal child. Its a very different level of upbringing. And you can tell when a child is different.


Jeeya: so when you were a child did you feel superior to others


Nandini: no I was very inferior and very vulnerable


Jeeya: so in early stage the inferiority complex was not there right.


Nandini: it was after 18 years 20 years when I left India and went to Australia and I was constantly working so I can see that how I can feel superior. Coz all my childhood and teenage year I was very inferior, very vulnerable.


Jeeya: next part of article link to depression. The struggle is that the core of the deep concept of the narcissism. One focus as much on depression as on grandiosity. So basically this new concept of narcissism is that they have constant need to have their greatness verified by the world around them. When the reality catches up with them they may react by becoming depress. So a clear set up such as job loss or divorce or even a plan being scuttled, dents the carefully burnished self-image of a narcissist individual, so it feels like the narcissist is being attacked. So I think I have a little bit of that in me. Not too sure maybe a lot as well. As you can see anything that happens I go into the depression rather than feeling superiority about myself. And yah thats the first reaction that I really become depress. I was self-destroying, if you can put it that way. So basically I cannot take failure. I cant take mistake .i cant take losses. Since young I was told, u know that you cannot make mistake and a..yah..it was like no..no or mmmno no for any wrong doing. Like basically you have to be proper and right. But I know I cant. Like u know so proper that you have to behave yourself. Like as a kid you cannot really likeexample as a kid you cannot play around with the mud but of course as a kid you want to play around with the mud. Coz as a kid you enjoy playing around in mud. But then you playing in the mud, you get all the bashing because of that behaviour. So eventually I also develop this willfulness in me that I am not listening and I became really rebellious.


Nandini: I was never rebellious. I always listen. I always portray a character of a very good daughter, who would listen to the parents all the time. But I also showed that I am very stupid which who cannot understand anything so that no responsibility is given to me. The responsibility was always pass on to my sister and she suffered quite a lot because of that. But I was way too vulnerable and depression used to hit me a lot. Very sad child, very depressive. Responsibility was not there but and I already prof that I am way too stupid to handle anything. So expectation was there from my part.


Jeeya: I think for me. Main thing is that failure is a major thing in my life. so initially I cant take any failure as you know that my studies are not good and I am always like you know.. Below average student. Struggling to studies. Each time I get the result.. I barely get the good results. And once I get the good results, maybe I need like a recognition from my parents. And when I showed it to them, its like a brush off and its like yah, its not the best result you know. You look at your brother and sister, they score 100 points or they are like the top scholar in the class and things like that. So it feels like all the time that I am always the failure. That I cannot do anything well. So eventually that part of me started to hide. And try to disguise, in that sense that I will try my best to do whatever I can. Even if I cant do it, I will still keep on trying. Process is not important, results are important. In thats sense. If I enrolI cant cope up the studies. I have given myself excuse that I have lot of odd jobs to do. U know thats why I cannot fully concentrate on full timers as a student. Thats the reason why I cannot have the good results. But the actual fact is that I am not smart. Even if I am given 100% full time hours to work on study, I would still be not able to cope up with my studies and fail still. And if I fail still then, all this result will be. Eventually show that, I am really not capable student. For me failure is like a disgrace and humiliation. So that is the thing I revolve around. To the extent that .aaaa.. Basically i cant study. People go for express, they go to ---------- to study, they high school, I take 5 years. I take the normal course.mm.. Studies people go for mmmjunior college for 2 years. I will go to institution for 3 years. People studies there degree in 3 years, I complete my degree in 5 years, 6 years. So that kind of thing. So everything I take much longer than everyone coz I cant understand. I need to work extra hard to understand and to the extent that I have to literally have to memorise it. Coz I cantI am not flexible in enough to understand the concept. I dont have the intellect to do that. So .basically it takes a lot of hard work to understand. Eventually I reach there but I am not like within seconds I will understand the concept. I need to reread many times. So this also shows that I am very inefficient person. And that is actually the biggest part of me that I cant accept. Basically I feel very ashamed of myself. And that self-worth is not there. Self-esteem is not there and eventually I hate the whole world as I cant fit to this whole world. This world is too difficult and harsh on me .this is world is..u knowits always the people you know having the problem. Its never like I am too week and I cant fit into this world. This world is normal. I am the abnormal one that I cant fit in. I am the stupid one who cant be there. You know I am not the pretty enough to be there. U know things like that. Its always like never look within but always look outside. They are the problem that causes me to unable to fit in this world.


Nandini: so you never felt like Godly?


Jeeya: no Godliness in me.


Nandini: I totally agree with you Jeeya. After 18 years I felt like I really have to drop that impressions and really want to gain that power and money so that I can keep all the people mouth shut and finally show to everyone, not to myself but to prof to everyone that how good I am . thats why I work pretty hard coz I knew the only thing which I can do is earn money . Though with the studies of 3 years course, I completed in 3 and a half years, failed in one. I was literally never was in university to attend any tutorial. but I was working all the time to earn money. Money was my number one priority. It was all in my mind and I was way too attach with the money and proof my point by opening up the business and I saw how I could get the attention of the people and put the other people down. And it was the only way to get over the vulnerable part in me.


Jeeya: I do have that money thing in me. To shut people out in that sense. Not like your situation. My situation more too at least I have independence of self-independence and my parents would shut up and always saying that I am an expenditure to them. Coz whenever I felt like a u know the burden to the family coz I mean in that sense I been hint that u know rather than waste money on you, I could have spent it on your sisters and brothers so that they can actually further their study. I am just because u know giving you the equal chance, providing you the basic so that. u know not deprive of any chance for education in that sense. So whenever I get the chance at the age of 16 to go and work out and work a earn my own income. I immediately do it coz that was my only way as you say to shut them up. I am not going to use your money, I am going to have my own, I have my independence and I will not depend on anyone anymore Nandini and I would use the money on them, to buy them up and thats what I did with my parents .i manipulate them with money and to put my sister and brother down by having more than them, just to prof that how good I am. Even though I was not good enough. I was not good at studies. Like you know what you have mention, I have to memorise all the time. It was not there. The only thing which I knew was to manipulate and sell. So what I knew, I used that, in getting more money. The selling part as I knew how to manipulate the people and can sell and thats where I made the money. And put people down and shut their mouth. And that was my downfall. Getting the money and power i would say. Power was the starting of my downfall. Jeeya and they actually say that the extroverted narcissist exhibit grandeurs the attention seeking. So vulnerable narcissist, simply succumb to their damaged self-image. So we are actually both of this.


Nandini: do you think sometime you can switch the personality too.do you do that? coz I do that from being vulnerable, to being the extroverted , to being the covert. Iot depends upon what needs to be used to the person and just changed according to that.


Jeeya: I am generally operating from the vulnerable side. More inferior side. At work I become more arrogant person. I thought thats the only way for me to handle the staff, to manage them. Nandini :so that they cannot come on the top of you Jeeya yah because to me I cant handle them. Because they are better than me and I still have to still establish my role as a manager to them. Coz I did try to be nice to them and they were all over my heads. Like stepping all over my heads. They dont respect me. They dont treat me nicely. I didnt like it coz I dont feel respected. In the end when I became the mean, stern manager u know looking at them, u know behind their back, hunting them then looking at their mistake u know. Thats where everybody become scare of me and everybody became productive. So in my rigid mind, I thought that oh this is the solution. So I should be like that.


Nandini: to get the power


Jeeya: not much power in that sense. But at least I make sure that the staff behave.


Nandini: but did that made you feel good Jeeya no I feel very lousy about myself. But I have to do it. I didnt like the mean side of myself. Of course I am in denial. U know I was constantly thinking that I am not so bad. I am a kind person. ofcourse being the fake kind person and considerate person, you dont want to believe that u have u know ..that..i dont have really ..That mean. U know I been forced by the circumstance. I been forced by the role as the store manager to become the mean person. So I did not accept that this meanness in me that is in total denial actually. Coz I was unable to accept that. And they also say that people may have develop this trait as the children in context to the relationship. Like these individual may have inconsistent experience with their parents, related in particular to how success and achievement were recognized. Parents might have refused to acknowledge achievement or discouraged bragging about them, taking away the rose coloured glasses of healthy narcissism that could have eased the way as a Child encountered new challenges in life. SO it bring us back to the main one that is the day we are born. In that article it says that a child hood experience may play a major role, but most expert agree that both high levels of trait narcissism and NPD arise from combined influence of nature and nurture that likely begin in the genes. So narcissism is a highly heritable trait. It could be like what you said that inborn thing that it comes, its already there. But then the very first sentence that came out is that narcissism is in everyone. So is I believe that everyone has narcissism in everyone? How they being developed is the core right now. It says that if parents does not give the proper recognition, eventually they will also encourage the narcissism in them. But if proper attention and aa.. Like what you say what your sister treat in a proper way so it will develop a healthy narcissism instead of the extreme one.


Nandini: I still think..i might be wrong but when you healthy narcissism , what do you mean ?


Jeeya: basically the parenting style, the influence of relationship Nandini no how person react reacts when its a health narcissism. Like taking a selfie and loving themselves or having that confidence when feeling vulnerable. Is that the healthy narcissism. Jeeya no because ok .in this article, they actually say that parenting style influence the relationship and once social and culture environment can encourage or deter the narcissism development. So mothers and fathers are warm and affectionate, spending time with their kids and showing interest in their activities, the children gradually internalize the belief that they are worthy individuals, the very core of self-esteem and this doesnt spill over into narcissism. So the parents overvaluation, placing children on a pedestal, does promote narcissistic traits. So thats why they said that


Nandini: I actually, rite now, now understand the traits. These are the traits not the nature of them which they develop while they are growing up. But the narcissism, the disorder is the in born. So the traits are different and now the disorder is the different thing. So the person who might have got the trait but thats not their nature. Their nature is the empath. So the nature is something different let say not the empath. The nature is different and these are the trait which develop over the time which can be changed as these are not their nature. But a child who is born, is born as a disorder and that cannot be changed by just mere talking. It needs a lot of awareness not of that person but the people who are around to help them to overcome which is not at all easy. A person who is born coz I am seeing myself and I am seeing my niece who is 5 year old and we both are same. The way we think. We dont have the caring, the emotions .the nature is very similar. And she doesnt know. She feels that the way she is reacting is very natural. And my sister cannot understand that how she is reacting is different and not able to understand that part. So what I am saying that the trait you have said can be changed as its healthy and its not the nature. But the disorder cannot be changed by the person themselves


Jeeya: the personality disorder you mean


Nandini: the personality disorder is in born and the trait is something which is not there nature which develop that can be changed with bit of awareness in the people. Lets take example of Meera develop some trait of narcissist but her true nature is something else and if someone tells her that if she got some traits of narcissist , if she works hard on it and become aware the she can change but a person like me who is born with the personality disorder. I would never.. If you come to me and say that I behave like that, I would laugh at you. Coz deep down I know thats how I operate and thats my real nature. So the person Jeeya how can you born with coz when you are baby you are not defined by anything


Nandini: the nature is already there.


Jeeya: when you are a baby we are not influenced by anything but eventually the first contact we have is the environment of parents. So the way the parents treats the child will eventually u know parents are like water and the children, or the narcissism is like a seed in every one of us. How the parents water the plant and how the parents water the seed of narcissism in us, will create who we are. So like example in this article it says raising a narcissistic, its better for parents to say to the children you did a good job rather than deserved to won or why you as good as she was? So I was in treated in a sense of why you were not as good as your sister. why you are not as good as your class mate. So yah.. its actually the core issue that actually u know kind of of develop narcissist because of the parents cannot treat the children.


Nandini: I do not agree with you. For example me and my sister are there and my mother is a narcissist mom and both been treated in the same way. like sometimes mom will say good thing about me and sometime my mom say good thing about my sister. So how come my sister didnt develop that high extreme narcissist as compare to me.


Jeeya: what makes you think your sister is not an extreme narcissist of the other side of it.


Nandini: the other side, what do you mean Jeeya like my side, the vulnerable side.


Nandini: she is vulnerable and she has got the narcissism but u know they……..what about your sister


Jeeya: I am not too sure. She may have a little bit of narcissist in her as she likes to manipulate people and drive her crazy in that sense. Everybody has it in us


Nandini: then how come one person go extreme.


Jeeya: because you cant.. Like you know.. If you are 16 , you will have your own mind and your thoughts. That parents cant control. But the parents are the core at the pre.. The first earlier stage when the narcissism is being developed. U know eventually. We take charge of our own life and develop yourself further. But if a child for instance has a good self-esteem and then bring up the child correctly, of course the child will know the right and wrong in a proper way. And eventually as they create own adulthood, they will not go in narcissism as they have been bought up in a proper way.


Nandini: yeah for me.. Actually I had my childhood where we were kept separate from the other people around me. We never mixed up from the other people around me. Not much of friends and relationship or people coming to our house. My mom used to say no dont go there. its not good to trust the people around . There was constantly competition between me and my sister and gossiping happening. So for me this seems natural. And when I used to make my brother sister fight, my mom used to laugh at it, so for me it seems very fine to behave this way.. From childhood I thought its very natural to be like that as the people are like that too. But my sister knew that something is not right in the family. She was always fights and expressing her emotions if things were not done is right manner. Something in her was telling her that this is not right. She might develop the trait but her nature was different. She mention that when I left India, she felt very relieved. But mom was on the top of her now and she didnt feel really good coz she knew that how mom was reacting was not really the right way. And if mom would have reacted differently and did something then yeah……


Jeeya: so definitely parents play the major role . U know coz.. Apparently it seems like if the parents are giving this insecurity to the child and if they are only promoting competition so eventually in Singapore society, its all about achievement , studies, go to the good school and things like that. So I was only been taught like that a son or daughter learns that a mothers or fathers love and the attention are available only if high expectations are met. Children who feel they can never measure up can move into adulthood with a fragile ego and latch onto narcissistic thoughts and behaviours to shore it up. So I think this is very applicable to me. In that sense I was presented that everything is win situation and everything is a competition. I know I am loser in the end as compare to my friends who are professor, teachers and business man and I am like a sales assistant like a thing so yeah thats how far I have reached. Totally low self-esteem, never think that only job good for me, thinking of lowest of low job I dont even deserve doing it. Totally no confidence. And even if I tried to be a store manager, its just a face. I am just trying to act according to the role but deep down I know that I did not deserve or I can do the job.so and the next one bring us to the Mislabelled millennials. That means they actually say that, no matter how hard parents try to steer children away from all or nothing competition, many eventually have to vie for college admission, internships and jobs. Shrinking opportunities may be what contributing to a perception of raging narcissism among young adults. When you are set up highly competitive environments, we are really encouraging people who are more ruthless. The narcissist are going to flourish, because they are willing to do more to get ahead than the average person would. And they eventually society encourages the narcissist as opposed to one where that kind of behaviour is discouraged. So we actually have lot more opportunities to express the narcissism than last time and also like what you said , the youngster are using the social media to promote themselves like selfie


Nandini: brainwashing people mind


Jeeya: yeah. They are giving the fake face in front of. u know there are actually cases there were some people dont feel good about their own looks but there is this app that can enhance your look. Like face look sharper. They actually Photoshop themselves and live by this face. There is real case..


Nandini: and they compare. They do just because they are comparing with the other people and thats where they Jeeya no actually they live two life. There is actually this case where there is this girl actually was very popular. She is very popular. She is..because in the photograph you see that she has good figure and have very pretty face. Because she is art students who do Photoshop and she knows how to do proper photo shopping. So she actually Photoshop her own photograph to become who she dreams of herself to be. So she has like few hundred k of followers. And she is actually like a 200 pounds so she was portraying a person like about a 120 pounds like a person. That is the very big gap she is doing. But then she decided to come clean and say who she really is. yah that is what world is developing into because of social media.


Nandini: I think that narcissism is on rise. The things and the situations are created so that narcissism can flourish. Its the seed which been put on the people who are not even narcissist. The traits have been brainwashed on people by social media, by anything so that people can love them self a lot .maybe get somehow forget the real path, real journey.


Jeeya: I think in the article it says the narcissism is usually develop when they are younger, between late teens to early 20es. Because they are the times where we are feeling quite lost, loss of identity and searching who we are. As well as we just graduated from the school and still looking for the professional job and seeing what job that can suits us.


Nandini: I think narcissist can develop at any change like breakup of the relationship and or any of the big incident that happen and you want to show to the other person what they have lost and thats where the traits.. Like everything around will make you to have the narcissist traits in you. like even if you look at the actress. You look at Kim kardshian , you look at anyone what they are portraying. They are portraying that image of what people want to follow them. So the narcissism is around in big scale everywhere to brainwash people mind and making sure that seeds been installed around. And the people who are narcissist are at the higher level and portraying an image and life which normal people think is right and follow as well. The media help to as well.


Jeeya: so thats what you do when you follow kim kardshian


Nandini: yeah coz I was lost and look at her. She was pretty and I wanted to become like her and enjoy the attention. The way she is. I can dress like her as if she can do, I can also do and will be able to attract more men.


Jeeya: so basically the narcissist is one world stage. Its up there. The media has actually played that part that makes people to look up upon them. But narcissist is also talking about the power. So when there is a lot of self-assurance like a all the idol or the super star and they are good in talking and they pull the people towards them. Actually in the article it says that people high in narcissism are quite charming and easily attracting friends, lovers and voters over time though their self-focus can become insufferable. People high on the narcissistic scale tends to annoy friends and loved ones at least occasionally, while those with NPD may ultimately send them fleeing, serially costing themselves jobs friends and spouses. So eventually the people figure out that these narcissist people isnt that great after all. And then there is actually they also talk about the healthy level of narcissism is wrongly label. The interpersonal situation arises because a couple in conflict, they will be self- centred. In that article that say the rage makes narcissist all of us. The rage the emotions brings the narcissist in all of us. When we are hurt we are angry, we tend to focus on physic needs and fail to show empathy to other person. so both of the classic narcissist behaviour is displayed during those time.


Nandini: but just because the person are self-centred when they are in rage. Can they put the word narcissist there? I mean its unfair to use the narcissist for being self-centred for just a fight.


Jeeya: they are misunderstood as a narcissist. Basically narcissist people will attract echoist, someone who suffers from lack of normal self enhancement. These people are stuck with narcissist. They are the supply of narcissist. Like I am the one who is supply of you I that sense.


Nandini: so narcissist can be a narcissist supply.


Jeeya: we both are from extreme side


Nandini: you so were equally giving it to me. I was your supply sometimes too.


Jeeya: maybe. You never know.


Nandini: so we both were sucking each other


Jeeya: maybe. Can you please explain the part of sucking?


Nandini: I mean feeding.


Jeeya: can you explain


Nandini: you know the feeling when you are driving the car and there is red sign there indicating about the petrol. What happen then, car will start making noise, that feeling. And thats the feeling of feeding. When you are feeling low and going down in energy and the depression hits, the feeling of anxiety and yucky feeling hits and thats there, the narcissist is not in the control and they have to hook on to someone. I will act very vulnerable with you, you that you keep on talking and saying good things about me and in that way I am filling up my fuel tank . I am filling filling filling till the time you are exhausted. And the min you will be exhausted, my tank will be full. I have suck all your energy. And if you want to talk, I will say goodbye. Jeeya : They actually also say that a potential partner might be a narcissist . He claims to be great at everything except the relationships. So narcissist announce that they dont need anyone. They admit to preferring a trophy spouse to true love. And they are unable to do the fundamental repair work every relationship demands. So basically the hit is that narcissist cant fix a relationship so even for me at that point in time I also I cant be with people for too long. coz I dont think I feel suffocating but I feel bored. I dont think I cannot be with a person for ever. Its seems so tiring. Every day I have to see the same face. But of course deep down inside its because I cannot handle the relationship. So the next part comes to empathy that the impaired empathy aspect of narcissistic personality disorder can confuse those who havent been trained to diagnose it. a complete lack of empathy would identify a psychopathic personality but people high in narcissism or with NPD exhibit flashes of compassion. So the higher functioning narcissist have the capacity and ability to empathize. But ultimately their own needs come first. The empathy is often shallow and short lived. They will acknowledge that someone else is suffering, but that will quickly dissipate so they can get back to their own self-promotion. So empathy is short lived for narcissist and eventually all the attention will have to go back to them .


Nandini: there is always an agenda behind their empathy.


Jeeya: are you able to elaborate on that. if I see the other person is suffering , I mean ,I want to create an impression of a caring person. but in reality I know I am not at all. I do not have emotions for others apart from myself. I can fake the emotions that the other person to hide the inner darkness. I do this to gain the trust and get into their good book. I dont care about the other person.


Jeeya: I do have that same in me as well, not into their good books. Never wanted to be in anyones good book but I dont want to be the bad guy. I at least be on the fence thats what I been looking at. I dont want to be like taking side but at least I want to look good.


Nandini: now I understand when SreeMaaShriJI mentions that if SreeMaaShriJI is not here then I would destroy the other people and you would destroy yourself. I keep on effecting the other person and you affecting yourself. You dont go and effect the other person but you do it to yourself and I am the person who go and effect the other person around.


Jeeya: I always have low self-esteem that I am not good enough. And I would go deep down into the depression. And never know do something stupid.


Nandini: actually I also had thoughts of killing myself but then didnt have the guts to do so. And drop the idea


Jeeya: I didnt kill myself but I tried few times like purposely walk on the street and try to see if I can be knock down by the car or there was a time when I was looking down from the ninth floor ad I wanted to jump down. So a lot of try was given and yah ..Eventually I do not have the guts. I remember what if I dont die so I mean its ok to die. Dying is easy part but what if I dont dye. That is the consequence part that I have to bear with and live with, which is something I know I cant handle .so that stops me


Nandini: at least you have got that awareness.


Jeeya: that is not awareness that is coward. Thats the fact,


Nandini: I would not kill myself. Jeeya : the article say the fragile self is the true self underpinning of narcissism , one way to strengthen it is with self-compassion led to more stable feeling of self-worth, as opposed to self- esteem, which has a stronger association with narcissistic traits. So actually they suggested that you can unblock the block empathy of people who are narcissistic by constantly focusing them on relationship, community and connection to others. So unhealthy narcissism is a way of coping with attachment insecurity. By increasing that security, narcissism drops. So the end of this article say that the most promising take way from this research on narcissism is that we used to think that we could not be changed. In other words, narcissism may be able to change. coz if its a trait then it can be changed


Nandini: if its not the trait but the disorder


Jeeya: you never know, they also talk about disorder as well. So .


Nandini: no comments.. Still on recovery part so. Really want to change but sometimes.. Jeeya as long as this is that to qualify as a narcissist, they have to have certain motive and behaviour.