I knew Jeeya since 2015, we met at one of the Facilitators in Training workshop and since then we also worked together for following couple of years. During late 2015, Jeeya and I came up with an idea of Ashram (a communal space), where we would invite our mentor and spent time learning about spirituality and shades of our personalities.
The idea was brilliant as we had opportunity to learn boundlessly however we never thought that it'd be breaching into our mentors personal space. Looking at our excitement, our mentors politely accepted the proposal.
In this transcript, Jeeya and I speak about Narcissism and how we related to it at the Ashram House, where number of self invited "seekers" joined in to spoil our growth.
Jeeya: For me I highlighted that the label actually, narcissist is being
misused coz mm I personally think narcissist is very negative and bad thing.
But apparently from this article, he says that a little bit of narcissist is
good for us. Not as literally for me but for some people coz mm because it can
be actually a tool for some people who are generally more on inferior side.
Like even the normal people they actually take this a little bit of narcissism
of that trait of spinning, of feeling a little special that actually may help
them. Coz apparently lot of mm general narcissism like more of a normal one the
more normal narcissist, has been the victim of being over use by the label coz
they are not that are not the extreme narcissist like they are just normal but
they just been label as or put together or categorise with all the extreme
cases of narcissist so that is mmm and then the real narcissist like the one
covert or could be like myself that is hidden inside that we go undetected not
much people may know what I truly feel inside. Coz I have been hiding that part
of myself so deep inside that I think people will not be able to detect that
part of me. If it’s not properly address all this will be hidden and will go undetected.
That’s my
understanding of that paragraph.
Nandini: for me what I have written is narcissism is developing at a very fast
rate in this current world where Facebook and Instagram have become medium to
get the attention instantly. They have become the machines which are creating
the narcissism traits in the people. They are generating the seed which been
installed in people. I mean if a person is not a narcissist but being on social
media for long, he will definitely develop the envious, jealousy, competition
and will become sad and depress and start hooking people to get the attention
as slowly theses media are brainwashing people mind. And the people think what
they are doing there is no harm in it. That will this type of narcissist is
still in healthy stage. The real narcissist is hard to find. These are the
people whom you can never think of and have utmost trust. Normally are the wolf
wearing the sheep clothes.
Jeeya: I think generally that I found out recently that narcissism is in
everyone is like a I am not to sure is it born but everyone does show a little
bit of narcissist trait in us. It’s a matter of intensity of it like how much we are showing a little bit
or a lot. So that’s is what I found out like Nandini do you think that is being created by
social media this narcissist trait and they been putting it into the people
Jeeya: so that is I think for that we can talk about it at the later part coz
that will be something touch as well. So basically that is my understanding yah
I thought that narcissist is in everybody. So of course what you say the
environment, the people or the upbringing can play a part in developing a
narcissism in us, like in myself, for my case, of course where my childhood
thing happened I become inferior and I become the extreme of narcissist. So yes
so the more vulnerable side, so rather than the other side of u know the coin,
I am one extreme end as well. So yeah. Then the next one we can talk about what
narcissism is and what it isn’t. so mm in this article it say that actually having a little bit of
narcissism is good because it actually helps to build a little bit of
confidence so that we will go and take some risk or at least with this little
bit of special feeling about yourself we can try to, I don’t fight something for yourself, but at
least for me if I am a person who is not good enough. A little bit of that
special feeling, I would at least try to find something for myself or ok
actually I deserve something. Coz if I am always in that vulnerable state
thinking I am not good enough fight for myself for anything. So that little bit
of narcissism, that positive side of it, if it really put into the proper use,
it can actually help me.
Nandini: I don’t see
that narcissist of that much can of good side I mean that’s my view point if a person is a
vulnerable and if you think that keeping the vulnerable part hidden and using
narcissist and the fake feeling to feel better and even if the person gets the
attention so every time goanna get addicted so if there is healthy narcissism
that will eventually build up and become a lot more stronger and become an
extreme narcissism so the narcissist obviously when you start or born you are
not the extreme narcissist , you are a narcissist where the vulnerable feeling
is still there. somehow a little bit feeling is there and due to the certain circumstance
that happened , it will develop more and more so for me seeing narcissist,
being in a positive side but aa getting that feeling of being vulnerable is
more important than suppressing the feeling and putting narcissist trait on the
top and taking that risk. Coz eventually it will become really bad and hooked
up to people to get the attention every time.
Jeeya: of course what article says that having too much of narcissist that
special feeling that will cause problem for whoever it. So I think a lot of
discernment has to be in it and lot of discipline and awareness as well so that
you can use it a little bit but like you said but not like to much like you
said it will go into extreme cases. Coz if the awareness is not there u know
and get too much indulged in that role playing that eventually you will lost
yourself and will develop into another person.
Nandini: so if a person is vulnerable how can the person has that awareness and
then to stop being vulnerable is that situation then that hits you , the
inferiority complex hits you, you don’t get away you just need to get the attention. So saying that when you
get the taste of getting the attention it’s very hard even if you have awareness to
be on the right path. Coz it’s the easy way to get the attention from the people and not to work on
being vulnerable. So there is nothing called healthy. The min you know that you
have got narcissism trait in you that’s the point that you really need to start working on that part,
vulnerable part so that it does not develop, rather than saying that I have got
the narcissist coz if you have got the narcissist that means that chances that
you won’t be
able to handle that narcissism, the strangeness of handling the narcissism,
cannot be there. And it will be very easy to fall back. So that’s my understanding
Jeeya: but I think the most cases people who are narcissist they do not
realize that they are narcissist isn’t it so myself I also don’t really realise it
Nandini: but when you mention that being aware when they are being narcissist
Jeeya: so if they are being exposed through, as in before in, I am not too
sure if it’s
going to be in like early stages. It’s like something like sex education coz if early exposure and
explanation of possibility of becoming a narcissist then the awareness is there
right so if you being make aware if we are make being aware then at the early
stage so it will prevent the further damage to yourself.
Nandini: Actually that’s a very good point Jeeya. I would like to add something over here. That
my niece I would like to give example of my niece that she is narcissist and
she is 7 year old and it’s really hard as my sister didn’t really know about what narcissist is. My niece is very different to
handle with and to deal with and the way she behaves so now my sister is using
a very different approach because she is young and can be mould. So awareness
around the narcissist people is very important which can help the narcissist to
look at themselves coz having the narcissist trait must be hard on themselves
to look on it. But if the awareness is around them then they can act
differently and react differently and which can help a narcissist may be to
overcome the issue.
Jeeya: so I think basically there is something called the a narcissist personality
disorder inventory that is commonly used to measure the traits like the level
of their modesty , their assertiveness, the inclination to lead and willingness
to manipulate others , this was written in the article. So I think this is
something that was used to measure the weather you are extreme or a healthy
personality in that sense. So and then the article says that a diagnose for the
pathological narcissism which is mental health disorder involve different
criteria. so narcissist personality disorder is extreme manifestation of trait
and then this disorder can be diagnosed by the mental health professional and
suspected when a person narcissist trait impair, his or her daily functioning.
So if of course if we can reflect on yourself and for me is my own case. I feel
like one way or another I do few impair which I can’t really function properly on daily basis.
And can’t
really handle conflicts and as well as just add anything fiction, I do not want
to handle all those things. Loss of identity, I don’t know who am I, where I am going, those
types of questions comes up for me. So this article actually says that
dysfunctional might be related to the identity of self-direct or cause friction
in relationship due to problem with empathy and intimacy. So even though
pathological antagonism characterized by grandiosity and attention seeking. I
think I do have little bit of those in me.
Nandini: for me daily functioning I mean I have lot of attention seeking and
grandiosity I can say. That without the attention of the people it’s very hard for me to even survive for a
day. If I don’t get
the attention its was extremely hard for me. I hate conflicts and try to avoid
them. I don’t like
the conflicts around me but I enjoy …. For me the attention seeking is very important and to show everyone
how great I am and good .
Jeeya: do you have like any awkwardness in social interaction.
Nandini: I do show that I am very shy
Jeeya: but do you actually have a problem socializing with the other people
Nandini: no
Jeeya: but I do have a problem in connecting and socializing with the people
coz I can’t
connect .i was not able to blend in. I mean with the friends I can talk for
like 15-20 mins and after that I don’t know what to say anymore. Because I had the problem of instead of, I
would create something to talk. So eventually it will become gossiping about
other people. coz I do no what to say anymore and I have to create something to
say. So of course in my mind is ok that gossip is something good then . You
know everyone enjoys talking. At least I can keep the conversation going on .
Sometimes I really don’t have. I am blank there. I don’t know what to say.
Nandini: actually it happens to me. I only talk together the attention but
cannot connect with the people and I normally do not have any topic. What I do
normally is what I know. Change everyone’s topic so that the topic which I know,
everyone can talk to. And if I am in certain group, certain people, I really
feel very left out. I just want to go away from there. Gossiping, I really
enjoy gossiping. Since a child coz that’s the thing which made me feel really good
and I can talk and yah but connecting with the people it never happens.
Jeeya: even in this article it says that personality disorder is pervasive
disturbance in person ability to manage his /her emotions on a stable sense of
self and identity and maintain the healthy relationship in work friendship and
learn. It’s a
matter of rigidity that means we can’t change. Like everything is so fixated. I mean for me definitely of
course as long as I am in comfort zone that’s the way I will operate and I will stick
to it. Because to me that’s so called its most efficient way to work. Of course that’s only in my eyes and in others people’s eyes in might not. I am still the frog
in that well. i thought I world is the well. So I definitely operate in a very
rigid manner. Nandini : me too. You remember my driving. I always chose the one
way of driving no matter what people say so, go from there. I just don’t feel very comfortable. And I don’t like people telling me coz I am very
fixated with what I do, in that sort of way. Coz its lot easier. Jeeya I think
there is one question I have is I still don’t understand what is narcissistic
personality disorder and narcissistic personality inventory. Coz I think NPI is
like a score system to tell if you are narcissistic or not. So what’s your understanding?
Nandini: what the two words disorder and traits
Jeeya: narcissistic personality traits and narcissistic personality disorder
Nandini: I think the traits are just the starting. Like …. Jeeya lets do the next one many faces of
narcissism. So actually before that I didn’t discover myself as a narcissist. I
thought narcissist is only one face like you know like the extreme one. Only
the one who manipulate the people. But eventually vulnerability from myside as
operating from the inferior point view is also the narcissist coz there is many
similarities in there. So like in this article they also say that. there are
narcissists may indeed perceive themselves as being in the top 1 percent in
terms of talent, appearance, success, or all of the above. And it’s really a mistake to think that all
narcissists will be very obvious. So not all narcissist look for fame, looks
and money and then if we focus on too much on stereotype, you will miss red
flag that have nothing to do with vanity or greed which is people like me. So
because we are well hidden and no body actually notice us.
Nandini: you know Jeeya. I think all the narcissist have all these quality in
them. They all are vulnerable. I mean that’s the point which give rise to become and
feel superior and to manipulate the people. Vulnerability is the part is the
narcissism, inferiority complex is the narcissism and eventually in life as you
grow and get the taste of power and money and that’s where narcissism become more. That you
grow more into the narcissism. You have got the power and feel the power that
you try to manipulate and get more attention by doing lot of things. what I can
say from journey that I am very vulnerable and have lot of inferiority complex
and then when I got the taste of doing the business and the power came in. it
became that I want to show to everyone that how good I am and to use the power
to trap the people in. then why I came into the spirituality that was my
different phase again to slowing trying to get rid of the show path that
eventually would let go of everything. But again the agenda was to get the
attention. So narcissist have everything but it depends what they are getting
in their power to develop I mean not sure I make my line very clear or not but
itsdepends upon what narcissist people have in them. Like Donald trump he has
got the power, he has got the money and that’s how he can come into that category. But
deep down he is vulnerable and have inferiority complex. I mean laughs
Jeeya: I know that I could under the highly introvert or vulnerable
narcissist. I defiantly react to criticism and will go all the way down. I don’t need constant assurance that I am good.
I always feel very low about myself. I will be very critical about myself and
will go into this negativity.
Nandini: I was like that too. When I was in India but when I came to Australia,
I changed myself completely. coz I wanted to change , wanted to dominate people
coz I been living that personality for very long time. So then I was given the
freedom, coz rite now you were that coz you were with your family. And when I
was with my family, one criticism would blew me out but I was not asking. Yeah
I would talk to my sister. So when I was in India I was in very different
stage, vulnerable stage of narcissist. When I went to Australia I was on
different stage of narcissist. After leaving Udbhav I was on different level of
narcissist. Different personality, different vulnerable. Everything was there
so maybe. because you have not tasted what power and money can give that
feeling. Coz the min it comes in, it will take you to the different level of
narcissism.
Jeeya: can you please explain it to me what do you mean by different level of
narcissism .coz it feels like u know if I am not able too if I am not into the
narcissism or I myself is not narcissist or I would not have understood what
you have just explain.
Nandini: what I am saying is the vulnerability is the starting stage of
narcissism. When a narcissist person, he is vulnerable in the start. That’s the initial stage coz you and then ….just to make them self-good, like I want
to make myself feel good. I am so inferior and the min power of money comes, I
am feeling very good. I am relaying on that to get the attention of the people
to show the world so that they can see how strong I am. So that I can cover up
the vulnerable feeling inside me.
Jeeya: I think we are both operating from the same level. For me it’s not the money. But if you read my write
up. I actually said that I wanted to show that I have strong front in front of
everyone. Coz I felt humiliated and week when people know or when my parents
back then, show me how not good I am. I did cover up with that sense and want
to show to the world that I am strong. I mean under that kind of sentence we
are more sort of operating at the same level in that sense. Of course for me is
not the money. I control my emotions u know when I was kid I would tell myself
that I cannot cry coz if I cry I will be showing that I am week. So I have to
put up the very strong front. Even if they really cane me, I just stand there
and just let them hit me. I just don’t care. I just tell myself I cannot back down. The pride is the only
thing that put me together, that glues me together in that sense because I am
so broken.
Nandini: I would really like to add one thing that when you said about the
hitting part, I remember that when my mom was , I was 16 slapped , I didn’t reacted anything because I wanted to
maintain my …I want
to give that impression . see nothing can be..i cannot be broken. But deep down
I am broken but in a way to put my sister down and to get into my mum’s soft corner .that I was not ready to
show the emotion. I understand what you are saying. As I child I went through …something similar humiliated by my
parents, being called ..when..Like you know. When family members comes around
and was told to come outside and told that how week I am in studies and not
good I am. I used to hate it in front of teachers and everyone but then I have
that I have to show and prove it to everyone that I am …I have to leave India and have to go to
Australia.
Jeeya: is there any trigger point to make you behave in certain way and
forgotten about something.
Nandini: I mean there was lot of incidents that happen, I clearly remember how I
was humiliated in front of guests , humiliation in front of teachers .i could
not understand what normal people , children understanding . I was not really
good in studies. My mind could not grasp it. I was creative, I was good in
drawing. I was not able to study properly. It takes a lot so I didn’t know who I am. If anyone would ask what
sort of person I am or what I like I could not able to express myself or even
make a coherent sentence. There was whole lot of things missing inside.
Jeeya: what are the missing things?
Nandini: missing that. The connection, the feeling empty inside .the feeling …there was lot of emptiness , there was lot
of confusion inside.. Just didn’t know what is write and what is wrong.
Jeeya: is there anything that happened in your childhood that causes you to be
like that Nandini I think I am born like that. I am not going to say that it was
in me, all this circumstance made it worse. I think it could have been
controlled to what level I am today but if my family would have been more
understanding towards my situation. I think there could be some changes in me
but again it’s not
there mistake as level as I was never honest to them of how I feel and have
really express my emotions so that they could have helped me. I feel …growing a narcissist child, a parent have
to be very careful how they are dealing with. Coz they cannot deal with them
like a normal child. Its a very different level of upbringing. And you can tell
when a child is different.
Jeeya: so when you were a child did you feel superior to others
Nandini: no I was very inferior and very vulnerable
Jeeya: so in early stage the inferiority complex was not there right.
Nandini: it was after 18 years … 20 years when I left India and went to Australia and I was constantly
working so I can see that how I can feel superior. Coz all my childhood and
teenage year I was very inferior, very vulnerable.
Jeeya: next part of article link to depression. The struggle is that the core
of the deep concept of the narcissism. One focus as much on depression as on
grandiosity. So basically this new concept of narcissism is that they have
constant need to have their greatness verified by the world around them. When
the reality catches up with them they may react by becoming depress. So a clear
set up such as job loss or divorce or even a plan being scuttled, dents the
carefully burnished self-image of a narcissist individual, so it feels like the
narcissist is being attacked. So I think I have a little bit of that in me. Not
too sure maybe a lot as well. As you can see anything that happens I go into
the depression rather than feeling superiority about myself. And yah that’s the first reaction that I really become
depress. I was self-destroying, if you can put it that way. So basically I
cannot take failure. I can’t take mistake .i can’t take losses. Since young I was told, u know that you cannot make mistake
and a..yah..it was like …no..no or mmm…no no for any wrong doing. Like basically you have to be proper and
right. But I know I can’t. Like… u
know …so
proper that you have to behave yourself. Like as a kid you cannot really like…example as a kid you cannot play around
with the mud but of course as a kid you want to play around with the mud. Coz as
a kid you enjoy playing around in mud. But then you playing in the mud, you get
all the bashing because of that behaviour. So eventually I also develop this
willfulness in me that I am not listening and I became really rebellious.
Nandini: I was never rebellious. I always listen. I always portray a character
of a very good daughter, who would listen to the parents all the time. But I
also showed that I am very stupid which who cannot understand anything so that
no responsibility is given to me. The responsibility was always pass on to my
sister and she suffered quite a lot because of that. But I was way too
vulnerable and depression used to hit me a lot. Very sad child, very
depressive. Responsibility was not there but and I already prof that I am way
too stupid to handle anything. So expectation was there from my part.
Jeeya: I think for me. Main thing is that failure is a major thing in my life.
so initially I can’t take any failure as you know that my studies are not good and I am
always like …you
know.. Below average student. Struggling to studies. Each time I get the
result.. I barely get the good results. And once I get the good results, maybe
I need like a recognition from my parents. And when I showed it to them, it’s like a brush off and it’s like yah, it’s not the best result you know. You look
at your brother and sister, they score 100 points or they are like the top
scholar in the class and things like that. So it feels like all the time that I
am always the failure. That I cannot do anything well. So eventually that part
of me started to hide. And try to disguise, in that sense that I will try my
best to do whatever I can. Even if I can’t do it, I will still keep on trying.
Process is not important, results are important. In that’s sense. If I enrol…I can’t cope up the studies. I have given myself
excuse that I have lot of odd jobs to do. U know that’s why I cannot fully concentrate on full
timers as a student. That’s the reason why I cannot have the good results. But the actual fact is
that I am not smart. Even if I am given 100% full time hours to work on study,
I would still be not able to cope up with my studies and fail still. And if I
fail still then, all this result will be. Eventually show that, I am really not
capable student. For me failure is like a disgrace and humiliation. So that is
the thing I revolve around. To the extent that .aaaa….. Basically i can’t study. People go for express, they go to
---------- to study, they high school, I take 5 years. I take the normal
course.mm.. Studies people go for mmm…junior college for 2 years. I will go to institution for 3 years. People
studies there degree in 3 years, I complete my degree in 5 years, 6 years. So
that kind of thing. So everything I take much longer than everyone coz I can’t understand. I need to work extra hard to
understand and to the extent that I have to literally have to memorise it. Coz
I can’t…I am not flexible in enough to understand
the concept. I don’t have the intellect to do that. So ….basically it takes a lot of hard work to
understand. Eventually I reach there but I am not like within seconds I will
understand the concept. I need to reread many times. So this also shows that I
am very inefficient person. And that is actually the biggest part of me that I
can’t
accept. Basically I feel very ashamed of myself. And that self-worth is not
there. Self-esteem is not there and eventually I hate the whole world as I can’t fit to this whole world. This world is
too difficult and harsh on me .this is world is..u know…its always the people you know having the
problem. It’s
never like I am too week and I can’t fit into this world. This world is normal. I am the abnormal one that
I can’t fit
in. I am the stupid one who can’t be there. You know I am not the pretty enough to be there. U know
things like that. It’s always like never look within but always look outside. They are the
problem that causes me to unable to fit in this world.
Nandini: so you never felt like Godly?
Jeeya: no Godliness in me.
Nandini: I totally agree with you Jeeya. After 18 years I felt like I really
have to drop that impressions and really want to gain that power and money so
that I can keep all the people mouth shut and finally show to everyone, not to
myself but to prof to everyone that how good I am . that’s why I work pretty hard coz I knew the
only thing which I can do is earn money . Though with the studies of 3 years
course, I completed in 3 and a half years, failed in one. I was literally never
was in university to attend any tutorial. but I was working all the time to
earn money. Money was my number one priority. It was all in my mind and I was
way too attach with the money and proof my point by opening up the business and
I saw how I could get the attention of the people and put the other people
down. And it was the only way to get over the vulnerable part in me.
Jeeya: I do have that money thing in me. To shut people out in that sense. Not
like your situation. My situation more too …at least I have independence of
self-independence and my parents would shut up and always saying that I am an
expenditure to them. Coz whenever I felt like a u know the burden to the family
coz I mean in that sense I been hint that u know rather than waste money on
you, I could have spent it on your sisters and brothers so that they can
actually further their study. I am just because u know giving you the equal
chance, providing you the basic so that. u know not deprive of any chance for
education in that sense. So whenever I get the chance at the age of 16 to go
and work out and work a earn my own income. I immediately do it coz that was my
only way as you say to shut them up. I am not going to use your money, I am
going to have my own, I have my independence and I will not depend on anyone
anymore Nandini and I would use the money on them, to buy them up and that’s what I did with my parents .i manipulate
them with money and to put my sister and brother down by having more than them,
just to prof that how good I am. Even though I was not good enough. I was not
good at studies. Like you know what you have mention, I have to memorise all
the time. It was not there. The only thing which I knew was to manipulate and
sell. So what I knew, I used that, in getting more money. The selling part as I
knew how to manipulate the people and can sell and that’s where I made the money. And put people
down and shut their mouth. And that was my downfall. Getting the money and
power i would say. Power was the starting of my downfall. Jeeya and they
actually say that the extroverted narcissist exhibit grandeurs the attention
seeking. So vulnerable narcissist, simply succumb to their damaged self-image.
So we are actually both of this.
Nandini: do you think sometime you can switch the personality too.do you do
that? coz I do that from being vulnerable, to being the extroverted , to being
the covert. Iot depends upon what needs to be used to the person and just
changed according to that.
Jeeya: I am generally operating from the vulnerable side. More inferior side.
At work I become more arrogant person. I thought that’s the only way for me to handle the staff,
to manage them. Nandini :so that they cannot come on the top of you Jeeya yah
because to me I can’t handle them. Because they are better than me and I still have to still
establish my role as a manager to them. Coz I did try to be nice to them and
they were all over my heads. Like stepping all over my heads. They don’t respect me. They don’t treat me nicely. I didn’t like it coz I don’t feel respected. In the end when I became
the mean, stern manager u know looking at them, u know behind their back,
hunting them then looking at their mistake u know. That’s where everybody become scare of me and
everybody became productive. So in my rigid mind, I thought that oh this is the
solution. So I should be like that.
Nandini: to get the power
Jeeya: not much power in that sense. But at least I make sure that the staff
behave.
Nandini: but did that made you feel good Jeeya no I feel very lousy about
myself. But I have to do it. I didn’t like the mean side of myself. Of course I am in denial. U know I was
constantly thinking that I am not so bad. I am a kind person. ofcourse being
the fake kind person and considerate person, you don’t want to believe that u have …u know ..that..i don’t have really ..That mean. U know I been
forced by the circumstance. I been forced by the role as the store manager to
become the mean person. So I did not accept that this meanness in me that is in
total denial actually. Coz I was unable to accept that. And they also say that
people may have develop this trait as the children in context to the
relationship. Like these individual may have inconsistent experience with their
parents, related in particular to how success and achievement were recognized.
Parents might have refused to acknowledge achievement or discouraged bragging
about them, taking away the rose coloured glasses of healthy narcissism that
could have eased the way as a Child encountered new challenges in life. SO it
bring us back to the main one that is the day we are born. In that article it
says that a child hood experience may play a major role, but most expert agree
that both high levels of trait narcissism and NPD arise from combined influence
of nature and nurture that likely begin in the genes. So narcissism is a highly
heritable trait. It could be like what you said that inborn thing that it
comes, it’s
already there. But then the very first sentence that came out is that narcissism
is in everyone. So is I believe that everyone has narcissism in everyone? How
they being developed is the core right now. It says that if parents does not
give the proper recognition, eventually they will also encourage the narcissism
in them. But if proper attention and aa.. Like what you say what your sister
treat in a proper way so it will develop a healthy narcissism instead of the
extreme one.
Nandini: I still think..i might be wrong but when you healthy narcissism , what
do you mean ?
Jeeya: basically the parenting style, the influence of relationship Nandini no
how person react reacts when it’s a health narcissism. Like taking a selfie and loving themselves or
having that confidence when feeling vulnerable. Is that the healthy narcissism.
Jeeya no because ok .in this article, they actually say that parenting style
influence the relationship and once social and culture environment can
encourage or deter the narcissism development. So mothers and fathers are warm
and affectionate, spending time with their kids and showing interest in their
activities, the children gradually internalize the belief that they are worthy
individuals, the very core of self-esteem and this doesn’t spill over into narcissism. So the
parent’s
overvaluation, placing children on a pedestal, does promote narcissistic
traits. So that’s why they said that
Nandini: I actually, rite now, now understand the traits. These are the traits
not the nature of them which they develop while they are growing up. But the
narcissism, the disorder is the in born. So the traits are different and now
the disorder is the different thing. So the person who might have got the trait
but that’s not
their nature. Their nature is the empath. So the nature is something different
let say not the empath. The nature is different and these are the trait which
develop over the time which can be changed as these are not their nature. But a
child who is born, is born as a disorder and that cannot be changed by just
mere talking. It needs a lot of awareness not of that person but the people who
are around to help them to overcome which is not at all easy. A person who is
born coz I am seeing myself and I am seeing my niece who is 5 year old and we
both are same. The way we think. We don’t have the caring, the emotions .the
nature is very similar. And she doesn’t know. She feels that the way she is reacting is very natural. And my
sister cannot understand that how she is reacting is different and not able to
understand that part. So what I am saying that the trait you have said can be
changed as its healthy and it’s not the nature. But the disorder cannot be changed by the person
themselves
Jeeya: the personality disorder you mean
Nandini: the personality disorder is in born and the trait is something which is
not there nature which develop that can be changed with bit of awareness in the
people. Let’s take
example of Meera develop some trait of narcissist but her true nature is
something else and if someone tells her that if she got some traits of
narcissist , if she works hard on it and become aware the she can change but a
person like me who is born with the personality disorder. I would never.. If
you come to me and say that I behave like that, I would laugh at you. Coz deep
down I know that’s how I operate and that’s my real nature. So the person… Jeeya how can you born with coz when you are baby you are not defined
by anything
Nandini: the nature is already there.
Jeeya: when you are a baby we are not influenced by anything but eventually
the first contact we have is the environment of parents. So the way the parents
treats the child will eventually… u know parents are like water and the children, or the narcissism is
like a seed in every one of us. How the parents water the plant and how the
parents water the seed of narcissism in us, will create who we are. So like
example in this article it says raising a narcissistic, it’s better for parents to say to the
children “you
did a good job rather than “deserved to won” or “why
you as good as she was? So I was in treated in a sense of why you were not as
good as your sister. why you are not as good as your class mate. So yah.. it’s actually the core issue that actually u
know kind of of develop narcissist because of the parents cannot treat the
children.
Nandini: I do not agree with you. For example me and my sister are there and my
mother is a narcissist mom and both been treated in the same way. like
sometimes mom will say good thing about me and sometime my mom say good thing
about my sister. So how come my sister didn’t develop that high extreme narcissist as
compare to me.
Jeeya: what makes you think your sister is not an extreme narcissist of the
other side of it.
Nandini: the other side, what do you mean Jeeya like my side, the vulnerable
side.
Nandini: she is vulnerable and she has got the narcissism but u know they……..what about your sister
Jeeya: I am not too sure. She may have a little bit of narcissist in her as
she likes to manipulate people and drive her crazy in that sense. Everybody has
it in us
Nandini: then how come one person go extreme.
Jeeya: because you cant.. Like you know.. If you are 16 , you will have your
own mind and your thoughts. That parents can’t control. But the parents are the core at
the pre.. The first earlier stage when the narcissism is being developed. U
know…
eventually. We take charge of our own life and develop yourself further. But if
a child for instance has a good self-esteem and then bring up the child
correctly, of course the child will know the right and wrong in a proper way.
And eventually as they create own adulthood, they will not go in narcissism as
they have been bought up in a proper way.
Nandini: yeah for me.. Actually …I had my childhood where we were kept separate from the other people
around me. We never mixed up from the other people around me. Not much of
friends and relationship or people coming to our house. My mom used to say no
don’t go
there. it’s not
good to trust the people around . There was constantly competition between me
and my sister and gossiping happening. So for me this seems natural. And when I
used to make my brother sister fight, my mom used to laugh at it, so for me it
seems very fine to behave this way.. From childhood I thought its very natural
to be like that as the people are like that too. But my sister knew that
something is not right in the family. She was always fights and expressing her
emotions if things were not done is right manner. Something in her was telling
her that this is not right. She might develop the trait but her nature was different.
She mention that when I left India, she felt very relieved. But mom was on the
top of her now and she didn’t feel really good coz she knew that how mom was reacting was not really
the right way. And if mom would have reacted differently and did something then
yeah……
Jeeya: so definitely parents play the major role . U know coz.. Apparently it
seems like if the parents are giving this insecurity to the child and if they
are only promoting competition so eventually in Singapore society, it’s all about achievement , studies, go to
the good school and things like that. So I was only been taught like that a son
or daughter learns that a mother’s or father’s love and the attention are available only if high expectations are
met. Children who feel they can never measure up can move into adulthood with a
fragile ego and latch onto narcissistic thoughts and behaviours to shore it up.
So I think this is very applicable to me. In that sense I was presented that
everything is win situation and everything is a competition. I know I am loser
in the end as compare to my friends who are professor, teachers and business
man and I am like a sales assistant like a thing so yeah that’s how far I have reached. Totally low
self-esteem, never think that only job good for me, thinking of lowest of low
job I don’t even
deserve doing it. Totally no confidence. And even if I tried to be a store
manager, it’s just
a face. I am just trying to act according to the role but deep down I know that
I did not deserve or I can do the job.so and… the next one bring us to the Mislabelled
millennials. That means they actually say that, no matter how hard parents try
to steer children away from all or nothing competition, many eventually have to
vie for college admission, internships and jobs. Shrinking opportunities may be
what contributing to a perception of raging narcissism among young adults. When
you are set up highly competitive environments, we are really encouraging
people who are more ruthless. The narcissist are going to flourish, because
they are willing to do more to get ahead than the average person would. And
they eventually society encourages the narcissist as opposed to one where that
kind of behaviour is discouraged. So we actually have lot more opportunities to
express the narcissism than last time and also like what you said , the
youngster are using the social media to promote themselves like selfie
Nandini: brainwashing people mind
Jeeya: yeah. They are giving the fake face in front of. u know there are
actually cases there were some people don’t feel good about their own looks but
there is this app that can enhance your look. Like face look sharper. They
actually Photoshop themselves and live by this face. There is real case..
Nandini: and they compare. They do just because they are comparing with the
other people and that’s where they Jeeya no actually they live two life. There is actually
this case where there is this girl actually was very popular. She is very
popular. She is..because in the photograph you see that she has good figure and
have very pretty face. Because she is art students who do Photoshop and she
knows how to do proper photo shopping. So she actually Photoshop her own
photograph to become who she dreams of herself to be. So she has like few
hundred k of followers. And she is actually like a 200 pounds so she was
portraying a person like about a 120 pounds like a person. That is the very big
gap she is doing. But then she decided to come clean and say who she really is.
yah that is …what
world is developing into because of social media.
Nandini: I think that narcissism is on rise. The things and the situations are
created so that narcissism can flourish. It’s the seed which been put on the people
who are not even narcissist. The traits have been brainwashed on people by
social media, by anything so that people can love them self a lot .maybe get
somehow forget the real path, real journey.
Jeeya: I think in the article it says the narcissism is usually develop when
they are younger, between late teens to early 20es. Because they are the times
where we are feeling quite lost, loss of identity and searching who we are. As
well as we just graduated from the school and still looking for the
professional job and seeing what job that can suits us.
Nandini: I think narcissist can develop at any change like breakup of the
relationship and or any of the big incident that happen and you want to show to
the other person what they have lost and that’s where the traits.. Like… everything around will make you to have
the narcissist traits in you. like even if you look at the actress. You look at
Kim kardshian , you look at anyone what they are portraying. They are
portraying that image of what people want to follow them. So the narcissism is
around in big scale everywhere to brainwash people mind and making sure that
seeds been installed around. And the people who are narcissist are at the
higher level and portraying an image and life which normal people think is
right and follow as well. The media help to as well.
Jeeya: so that’s what you do when you follow kim kardshian
Nandini: yeah coz I was lost and look at her. She was pretty and I wanted to
become like her and enjoy the attention. The way she is. I can dress like her
as if she can do, I can also do and will be able to attract more men.
Jeeya: so basically the narcissist is one world stage. It’s up there. The media has actually played
that part that makes people to look up upon them. But narcissist is also
talking about the power. So when there is a lot of self-assurance like a all
the idol or the super star and they are good in talking and they pull the
people towards them. Actually in the article it says that people high in
narcissism are quite charming and easily attracting friends, lovers and voters
over time though their self-focus can become insufferable. People high on the
narcissistic scale tends to annoy friends and loved ones at least occasionally,
while those with NPD may ultimately send them fleeing, serially costing
themselves jobs friends and spouses. So eventually the people figure out that
these narcissist people isn’t that great after all. And then there is actually they also talk about
the healthy level of narcissism is wrongly label. The interpersonal situation
arises because a couple in conflict, they will be self- centred. In that
article that say the rage makes narcissist all of us. The rage the emotions
brings the narcissist in all of us. When we are hurt we are angry, we tend to
focus on physic needs and fail to show empathy to other person. so both of the
classic narcissist behaviour is displayed during those time.
Nandini: but just because the person are self-centred when they are in rage. Can
they put the word narcissist there? I mean it’s unfair to use the narcissist for being
self-centred for just a fight.
Jeeya: they are misunderstood as a narcissist. Basically narcissist people
will attract echoist, someone who suffers from lack of normal self enhancement.
These people are stuck with narcissist. They are the supply of narcissist. Like
I am the one who is supply of you I that sense.
Nandini: so narcissist can be a narcissist supply.
Jeeya: we both are from extreme side
Nandini: you so were equally giving it to me. I was your supply sometimes too.
Jeeya: maybe. You never know.
Nandini: so we both were sucking each other
Jeeya: maybe. Can you please explain the part of sucking?
Nandini: I mean feeding.
Jeeya: can you explain
Nandini: you know the feeling when you are driving the car and there is red sign
there indicating about the petrol. What happen then, car will start making
noise, that feeling. And that’s the feeling of feeding. When you are feeling low and going down in
energy and the depression hits, the feeling of anxiety and yucky feeling hits
and that’s
there, the narcissist is not in the control and they have to hook on to
someone. I will act very vulnerable with you, you that you keep on talking and
saying good things about me and in that way I am filling up my fuel tank . I am
filling filling filling till the time you are exhausted. And the min you will
be exhausted, my tank will be full. I have suck all your energy. And if you
want to talk, I will say goodbye. Jeeya : They actually also say that a
potential partner might be a narcissist . He claims to be great at everything
except the relationships. So narcissist announce that they don’t need anyone. They admit to preferring a
trophy spouse to true love. And they are unable to do the fundamental repair
work every relationship demands. So basically the hit is that narcissist can’t fix a relationship so even for me at
that point in time I also I can’t be with people for too long. coz I don’t think I feel suffocating but I feel
bored. I don’t
think I cannot be with a person for ever. Its seems so tiring. Every day I have
to see the same face. But of course deep down inside its because I cannot
handle the relationship. So the next part comes to empathy that the impaired
empathy aspect of narcissistic personality disorder can confuse those who haven’t been trained to diagnose it. a complete
lack of empathy would identify a psychopathic personality but people high in
narcissism or with NPD exhibit flashes of compassion. So the higher functioning
narcissist have the capacity and ability to empathize. But ultimately their own
needs come first. The empathy is often shallow and short lived. They will
acknowledge that someone else is suffering, but that will quickly dissipate so
they can get back to their own self-promotion. So empathy is short lived for
narcissist and eventually all the attention will have to go back to them .
Nandini: there is always an agenda behind their empathy.
Jeeya: are you able to elaborate on that. if I see the other person is
suffering , I mean ,I want to create an impression of a caring person. but in
reality I know I am not at all. I do not have emotions for others apart from
myself. I can fake the emotions that the other person to hide the inner
darkness. I do this to gain the trust and get into their good book. I don’t care about the other person.
Jeeya: I do have that same in me as well, not into their good books. Never
wanted to be in anyone’s good book but I don’t want to be the bad guy. I at least be on the fence that’s what I been looking at. I don’t want to be like taking side but at least
I want to look good.
Nandini: now I understand when SreeMaaShriJI mentions that if SreeMaaShriJI is
not here then I would destroy the other people and you would destroy yourself.
I keep on effecting the other person and you affecting yourself. You don’t go and effect the other person but you
do it to yourself and I am the person who go and effect the other person
around.
Jeeya: I always have low self-esteem that I am not good enough. And I would go
deep down into the depression. And never know do something stupid.
Nandini: actually I also had thoughts of killing myself but then didn’t have the guts to do so. And drop the
idea
Jeeya: I didn’t kill
myself but I tried few times like purposely walk on the street and try to see
if I can be knock down by the car or there was a time when I was looking down
from the ninth floor ad I wanted to jump down. So a lot of try was given and
yah ..Eventually I do not have the guts. I remember what if I don’t die so I mean its ok to die. Dying is
easy part but what if I don’t dye. That is the consequence part that I have to bear with and live
with, which is something I know I can’t handle .so that stops me
Nandini: at least you have got that awareness.
Jeeya: that is not awareness that is coward. That’s the fact,
Nandini: I would not kill myself. Jeeya : the article say the fragile self is
the true self underpinning of narcissism , one way to strengthen it is with
self-compassion led to more stable feeling of self-worth, as opposed to self-
esteem, which has a stronger association with narcissistic traits. So actually
they suggested that you can unblock the block empathy of people who are
narcissistic by constantly focusing them on relationship, community and
connection to others. So unhealthy narcissism is a way of coping with
attachment insecurity. By increasing that security, narcissism drops. So the
end of this article say that the most promising take way from this research on
narcissism is that we used to think that we could not be changed. In other
words, narcissism may be able to change. coz if it’s a trait then it can be changed
Nandini: if it’s not
the trait but the disorder
Jeeya: you never know, they also talk about disorder as well. So ….
Nandini: no comments.. Still on recovery part so. Really want to change but
sometimes.. Jeeya as long as this is that to qualify as a narcissist, they have
to have certain motive and behaviour.